yavieriel replied to your post:                   bamboocounting replied to your post: elros &…                

   I’m <3 that you guys are talking about this but also slightly
annoyed that I’m too tired to get very involved, but basically I agree
with all of this – that Tolkien’s aesthetic choices as a writer get lost
in character-oriented fandom, when it’s such a fundamental part of what
makes Tolkien… /Tolkien/.  The consistent development of aesthetic and
thematic concerns and stylistic devices throughout Tolkien’s body of
work is just really striking, especially given how   

   how little attention modern literature gives to the aesthetic
experience of prose v. “immersive”/“realistic” depiction.  Which I think
is one of the reason fandom – coming from a very contemporary
perspective opposed to Tolkien’s historically-grounded perspective –
tends to lose sight of those aesthetic priorities.  I feel like it ties
into what Gogol was talking about w/r/t genre literature and narrative
realism.  Idk there’s something that is almost coming together   

   in my brain here but I’m tired and it’s refusing to cohere into
something I can actually articulate.  It’ll probably make sense sometime
next week 😛    

No yeah that totally makes sense! Lol this is articulated way better than my vague rambling tbh. Like, especially, I’ve noticed there’s this tendency to interpret events or justify meta based on ‘what the characters would be most likely to do in an occam’s razor way if they were real people divorced from their story’ when………’does this interpretation make a good story’ and ‘does this resonate with rather than unpleasantly undermine the beauty of other parts of this larger story’ are IMO far more important considerations when deciding on interpretations/meta….but also even when they’re not opposed in any way, the conspicuous absence of the non-character-stuff kind of….occasionally makes my brain do a catch and go ‘wait is this….still tolkien….?’ because a lot of the canon hallmarks of ‘ah! i’m home! i know this place! this is definitely tolkien!!!’ are not locked into character motivations/implications, which is the engine that most fanworks run on (which I looooooove btw, and I don’t think that people ought to be or need to be focusing on anything else in their fanworks, just….the connection or reason for writing fanwork for this story can drift away if too much non-character-stuff is sloughed off imo…)

bamboocounting replied to your post:                   bamboocounting replied to your post: elros &…                

    it’s not unimportant if it can be argued and
dueled over two millennia down the line, despite elrond facepalming on
the next continent! (and            

jkbdhfkdjvg lmao um, did tumblr eat the rest of this reply….?

anyway THIS IS TRU. it’s probably surreal to see ppl talk about your personal tumblr discourse as Things of Great Historical Significance

bamboocounting replied to your postelros & elrond 2am chatlog: “athrabeth for dummies…

this is still perfect because you got the tone of tumblr and tolkien dialogues where it starts out nightblogging and dips into CASUAL AFFIRMATIONS OF REUNITING IN A PERFECTED WORLD and then drops back into, whatever perehelish misunderstandings of physiology a meat cleaver is…

❤ I love you and I love that u appreciated this goofiness and its meandering through all the stuff I love best, even if I now slightly regret my mild implication that peredhil are more elvish than human but lmao whatev. I think my most intractable Elrond & Elros opinion is that they wouldn’t waste their limited time on bullshit (by which I mean, they would absolutely waste a ton of time on the most important type of bullshit.)

garden-ghoul replied to your post: crocordile replied to your post:      I saw you said…

I can FEEL what you’re saying. words are important in their own right. not as character experiences but as reader experiences? HARD TO TALK ABOUT. tolkien is a master of uhh. meta… narrative… fuck idk this is some deep shit

As reader experiences yeah! VERY HARD TO TALK ABOUT. I love a lot of fandom stuff but fandom is very character-focused and I feel like that only captures part of the, like, content of the legendarium. Viewing Tolkien’s stuff from a very character-oriented perspective yields a pretty strange filter, imo, especially when there’s debate about what that character-oriented perspective would actually be…

bamboocounting replied to your post:
                   bamboocounting replied to your post:             …                

   but every time I think about arwen and aragorn as the coda to elrond’s experience of numenor I wanna subside into foam   

bamboocounting replied to your post:                   bamboocounting replied to your post:             …                

   like I knew it was bad first time I read lotr? but it manages to get WORSE. HOW DARE HE.    

;___; i love…the tale of aragorn and arwen so much….he’s just so…so? “…well maybe u guys will have joy…for a while……IF you wait to do it properly when i know you won’t die pointlessly along with everyone else like the last time….let this be my victory too….” just….jkdsfhd what a good, though? i love tolkien’s commitment to consequences. wringing out the maximum consequences for one’s choices right to the very end. i think that’s what the akallabeth was for elros’ choices too, with the ‘dude if you die and pass things on to the next generation your legacy is out of your hands, and do you know what that might entail? LITERALLY WARPING THE WORLD INTO A SPHERE.’ – except ofc elros didn’t have to stand by and watch.

bamboocounting replied to your post:                 Among the Exiles many believed that the summit of…                

   the ‘how dare you do this with words’ feeling    

YES!!! 😀 the “carving out these things in one’s brain should not be possible with words” also, but the “Dare” part is the MOST IMPORTANT PART. How dare he.

a-a-a-aahhh i am having a slo-mo numenor meltdown and it’s like at least 45% *your* fault, personally, in multiple ways… ❤

numenorean scholarship?

1. Love the idea of scholarship being among the most honored things in Numenor. Peaceful isolated island specially crafted and gifted to them by the Valar, massive wealth and overabundance of natural resources, exactly 0 wars and negligible if any strife or hardship of any sort, no travel to speak of in the earlier days, and no real conflict-centered deeds to be done. But so much leisure and wealth and time to study all the things, imagine the libraries and the proto-universities, the loremasters and the scientists and the historians and the architects and the botanists and the mathematicians and the poets and the philosophers…and kids with long childhoods to indulge in it….

2. One of the most fascinating lines in the UT is what is transparently a wink-wink cop-out on Tolkien’s part to explain why there isn’t more Numenorean content: “when it became clear that the Land of
Gift was taken away and that Númenor had disappeaed for ever, all but a
few regarded study of what was left of its history as vain, breeding only
useless regret.” Lmao, the fuck guys. But this is just, fascinating? It’s so completely the opposite of elves, I love it, but it’s also such an intense reaction when compared to what happens in real life – because the situations that happen in Arda are not comparable to real life! – that the conformity and unbiquitousness of this idea/emotion is so compelling. The idea of grief and loss and dull horror sick enough to batten down willful amnesia and cringe away from even academic study and preservation reverberating down the generations so engrained in one’s cultural dna that the study of history lapses is…damn…

3. The components of all the great stories being rearranged with each successive era of history to thematically fit the Numenoreans’ evolving self-image and actions with regards to the rest of the world – not as a survival mechanism or source of inspiration, because they need none, but as a source of direction, momentum, and meaning. And I don’t mean like, lying or suppression or whitewashing or twisting or propaganda or anything intentional at all tbh (though later on there would be some of that too.) I mean, like, folklorically, migration and mutation of stories bouncing from one end of the island to the other, being passed to, and then back in telephone-like altered form from, the various diverging cultures. Just natural unforced alteration that would be totally blindingly obvious normalcy if it were taking place in any world but Arda, where there are immortals hanging around with a curve-breaking perspective.

4. One of the more godawful things I’ve run across in Tolkien linguistics research is that one of the possible translations of the name “Gimilzôr” – as in Ar-Gimilzôr, the absolute Worst™ of them all imo – is “Star-Foam.” As in, “Elros.” dsfhksfjjsdhg. Fuck. Like. Everything. Which inspires me in the direction of, I’m wondering…tbh while I could definitely see later King’s Men Numenorean propaganda blaming Elros for, like, selfishness/presumptuousness/whatever in thoughtlessly sticking all his descendants with his Doom and not caring that they didn’t get a choice; I wonder also about like, the suppressionist/revisionist option that would lead to this sort of ancestral naming if you go for that interpretation. Elros the victim of an injustice who nobly sacrificed his chance at immortality for the sake of his people because the Valar maliciously coerced him into it for [insert excuse here], but whose descendants have been denied their due long enough and ought to avenge him against the Valar for stealing the immortality that ought to have been his/theirs by right, or something….lmao

mixed replies

actualmermaid replied to your post:                  i ask you, what has canceling-not-stacking,…                

   It’s like the fandom version of Those Socialists who aren’t happy
unless they’re the most ~radical ones in the room. Or maybe that’s just
the annoying circles I find myself in    

Lol! I feel like it’s more like…having to be THE Woke people, specifically in contrast to another group, and that interpreting things in such a way so as to make it possible to lip-curl at someone for enjoying lotr/the hobbit + pretending the only reason it’s possible to enjoy it is because They Don’t Know, Those Poor Souls or some bullshit, is more of a priority than interpreting the full timeline and fictional universe in a way is actually sensible and satisfying. Or like, actually pays any attention to things that actually happen or the sheer density and length of the chronology and its actual relevance to….everything in the hobbit and lotr…Tolkien was really really really good at repurposing and retconning his stuff into becoming even better than he had planned.

berrysphase replied to your post:                   i ask you, what has canceling-not-stacking,…                

   Contrails of smugness <333   

imindhowwelayinjune replied to your post:                   i ask you, what has canceling-not-stacking,…                

I mean it led to this post, which in my mind is a pretty solid coup  

Lemme just roll around in your wording cos it words so good                

Yum

sjkgfhdjgfhdk omggg ok maybe I write best when I’m irritated….

garden-ghoul replied to your post:                  garden-ghoul replied to your post:                …                

   THANKS I love the medieval art lookin one where it has a tiiiiny
bird face in a big huge head… skulls n smoke are a great combo though I
gotta draw some balrogs now    

I CALLED IT THE TRAIN FACE BALROG anyway yessssss pls draw!!!

crocordile replied to your post:                crocordile replied to your post:                …                

   First of all I love Yav’s idea lololol   

   My friend @peredhel​ who’s no longer on tumblr kind of literally was
gothmog hahaha it was so much fun tbh, I just ended up absorbing all of
their characterization for that character. Irrc it was partially bc
high king of the noldor + the rescue of maedhros, but also bc my friend
headcanoned Gothmog being very attached to baby Glaurung, and being mad
on his behalf for the arrows he got from fingon    

WAIT I LOVE THIS. I may or may not be very appreciative of the idea of evil ppl on the same side genuinely liking each other…poor bb Glaurung…

berrysphase replied to your post:                Flight + the line of Lúthien, specifically the…                

   asdflkj 3 is just right I am stealing that forever    

PLEASE DO (I only just came up with it lol)

bamboocounting replied to your post:               Flight + the line of Lúthien, specifically the…                

   first the galadriel post and now this – y u want me to cry hard enough to leave salt residues on my glasses    

Excellent, my vague evil plan is going perfectly!

skeletontemple replied to your post:                   Flight + the line of Lúthien, specifically the…                

   Aaaaaaaah I had vague thoughts about mechanical ingenuity and dreams
of flying and you-never-know-with-these-part-Maia-kids but I didn’t
think at all about Tar-Míriel and escape and the desperation part of it
all and aaaaaaaah    

Ahh I’m glad you liked! Tbh I thought of more general bird ideas than flight related ideas in particular…

gurguliare replied to your post:
                   gurguliare replied to your post: Give me a Tolkien…                

   i love tolkien’s shittier geographical/narrative touchstones like SURE purifying lakes now show me LAST STAND WETLAND    

RIGHT LOL and…it’s kind of a weird choice too. I don’t think I’ve ever noticed it before, but it now comes to me that it’s odd that Tolkien would choose a wetland for this…why not like, a clearing in the woods, or a hill, or a plain, or something more mythological or some kind of a –

bamboocounting replied to your post:
                   gurguliare replied to your post: Give me a Tolkien…                

  this made me look up the dead marshes and the part
about tolkien basing it on his own experiences in wwi :[                

Ah. Haha. Hahahhaha. oh. no wonder. :

gurguliare replied to your post:                   gurguliare replied to your post: Give me a Tolkien…                

   GOOD #5 and #10 are my favorites but all of these    

I ASSUME U MEAN 5 and 8 BUT THANK YOU

gurguliare replied to your post:                   thelioninmybed  replied to your post:
           …                

   ok i had not considered the sports anime rivals (sport: model un)
version of this, maybe it’s time to get back on the boat !    

This would make the Mae-giving-up-the-crown bit The Most Sports Anime Thing…..I think? Most of my sports anime knowledge is through osmosis…

gurguliare replied to your post:                   thelioninmybed replied to your post:              …                

   that and ‘making or inciting oath meta’ that’s also a difficult beat    

Ah but like, for that they must call in catchaspark the consultant who doesn’t approve of the way things are done in their department, or smth

bamboocounting replied to your post:                  gurguliare replied to your post:                  …                

   when I’m not imagining you as an enraged finarfinion, I think of you as the fourth pic from the bottom here: underlook.org/under-d…    

AHHHH THE FLUFF??? I am so flattered…

Also I assure u that in spite of my icon, I am the least blonde person ever

gurguliare replied to your post:                   thelioninmybed replied to your post:              …                

   i would watch thelioninmybed and simaethae buddycop movie, i have no
basis for this except they always backread our conversations. which is
like. the toughest beat in town    

GUYS

bamboocounting replied to your post:                   thelioninmybed replied to your post:              …                

   sorry, there’s been several collections of animals photographed from
underneath (dogs, cats, rabbits and I believe horses?) many paws!    

THEIR BRAINS TOO?